track season. i'm so motivated. and i'm just so happy because the one thing that i wanted to do to go to the olympics is to inspire young girls and everyone. so i am happy to be in this position right now to be a role model. >> gabrielle douglas, and that you are. and natalie hawkins. the book is called "grace, gold & golory." thank you. my mother told me, life is not about where you start. it's where you go. you took a gold and brought it to the gold. thanks for watching. "hardball" starts right now. gay marriage. an american right? let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening.

i'm chris matthews in washington. let me start with this. today the united states supreme court said it would take up the issue of same-sex marriage. this is an astounding moment in american history and in the march of rights that began in philadelphia in the last quarter of the 18th century and continues through this first quarter of the 21st. is it constitutional for a state to deny people of the same sex the right to marry under the law? well, let's consider the 14th amendment. nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protections of the laws. and here is justice kennedy, anthony kennedy, in his majority opinion in the lawrence case of 2003 which declared anti-sodomy laws unconstitutional. quote, does a statute making it a crime for two persons of the same sex to engage in certain intimate sexual conduct violate the due process clause? yes. a statute making it a crime for two persons of the same sex to engage in certain intimate sexual conduct violates the due process law. quote, liberty protects the person from unwarranted government intrusions. freedom extends upon spatial bounds. liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct.

the defendants are adults, and their conduct was in private and consensual, and, quote, to declare the issue as one related to the right to engage in certain sexual conduct demeans the claim the individual put forward. so could it happen? could it happen next year? that the supreme court declare it is unconstitutional to deny people of the same sex the right to marry? what a question, what a story. joining me now is the president of the human rights campaign, chad griffin, and gay rights advocate elizabeth birch. i think i know what the majority opinion should look like. your thoughts. >> i couldn't have said it better, chris. it really is an incredible day today, that the supreme court is taking the prop 8 case, the perry case, as well as the doma case. and, you know, look, when this case was filed almost four years ago, the prop 8 case, we made the case in court that in this country we don't deny our citizens a fundamental right,

and the supreme court has called marriage a fundamental right no less than 14 times in the history of this country, and i'm optimistic that once the court does hear this case and the doma case, they're going to come down on the side of freedom, liberty, and equality just as they have so many times in our nation's past. >> and equal protection of the laws. elizabeth, thank you for coming on. equal protection of the laws. liberty is a pretty profound notion in this country. >> it is. >> pursuit of happiness is our declaration. why not? >> here is the thing, if you are gay and alive in our time in america, we're living in a kind of a policy and civil rights renaissance. we have seen extraordinary leadership from other parts of government already. don't we judge, chris, presidents by whether they stand up to the moment of history in

which they live? we have seen president obama step up to this issue, gay marriage -- >> getting rid of don't ask, don't tell. now saying he won't endorse doma. >> and our military has stepped up. >> even the marines are doing a great job. >> even the marines are. now we have to see will the supreme court also keep pace in our time with the other major institutions. >> count me as an optimist here. i know there were questions. chad, you're the expert, i have supported it and my wife has for years, human rights campaign. you have a hell of a name, human rights campaign. it's a great name. the liberty clause. if you get to the idea of the 14th amendment. life, liberty, and property cannot be denied to you. you have to do something wrong. it's got to be a crime. you can't just be denied liberty. your thoughts on that issue and how that can be used in the constitution. >> that's exactly right.

and there is no state interest to deny our citizens and the plaintiffs in this case the fundamental right to marriage. you know, chris, often times we get lost a bit when we're talking about these things, talking about the politics and the law, but at the end of the day there are fundamental lives at stake. when we filed this case, chris and sandy and jeff and paul had been together for ten years. now they have been together for almost 12, over 13 years. chris and sandy's twin boys were just entering high school. when this case is heard, they will be getting ready to graduate from high school. their moms deserve the same freedom to marry just as everyone else has in this country. and in this country we don't deny a certain portion of our citizens a fundamental right. we just don't. it's not american. >> isn't it true that when we had this in the court in the ninth in the appellate level, nobody came forward because nobody could come up with what you call a justification, some compelling reason. just chat on that point. you raised it. there's no compelling reason against giving the rights to people, the right to marriage. >> that's exactly right, chris.

it's important to note in both of these cases, the united states government has refused to defend doma, the federal law that's now before this court, and when we filed the case right here in california, as one has to do, we sued the governor at the time which was arnold schwarzenegger and our attorney general at the time which was jerry brown, the current governor. both responded by refusing to defend the case and ultimately joined our side in the case and said it was fundamentally an unconstitutional law and they weren't going to defend it. so the judge in our case, chief judge vaughn walker, who wrote that historic ruling in this case, allowed the intervening defendants, the proponents of prop 8, to intervene and to defend the case. on the doma case the small group of folks on capitol hill out of the house have come together and are defending it because the federal government won't.

at the end of the day this is unconstitutional, and everyone knows it. >> it's a day in history here. this could be a major moment in the court's history. look at what tom goldstein of scotus blogged last week. quote, i have never before seen cases i believe would be discussed 200 years from now. bush v. gore, obama care were relative pipsqueaks. the government's assertion of the power to prohibit a loving couple to marry or to refuse to recognize such a marriage is profound. so the opposite claim that five justices can read the federal constitution to strip the people of the power to enact the laws governing such a fundamental social institution. you know, elizabeth, it's not like we're talking about rock of ages, the big surprise. we have nine states that have done it. in this past election, which i think is pivotal, four states did it completely by popular vote. no court ruling on rights, just public will. >> for the first time in 40 years in four states thanks to the efforts of chad and a lot of other people, for the first time there was a populist vote, and the people spoke. they have never spoken in favor before, but there are really two ways. it's also equal protection under the law and also that the court has found it to be a fundamental

right. this is an extraordinary, extraordinary time, and -- >> let's cut this in two. there's two questions here. one is doma, the defense of marriage act. this administration will not defend it in the courts. if that gets struck down, what does that say to cases around the country where people have been allowed to marry in the same gender? chad, on that. what happens it doma gets struck down by the court, 5-4 or whatever? >> the ridiculously named defense of marriage act would be gone obviously. >> what would it mean to a gay person who is married? >> that would mean that couples who are married in those states as well as the district of columbia, their marriages would be recognized by the federal government. now, it would mean we still have a lot of work to do, and depending on how they rule in the prop 8 case, we would still need other states to move forward with the right to marry. >> right. >> but social security, if you were in california, for example, and the appellate court is still upholding that prop 8 -- or overruling it, if you're in a state, for example, iowa, new

york, massachusetts, connecticut, maryland, d.c., maine, vermont, new hampshire, iowa, washington state, if you're in one of those states and you're married legally, you can have social security coverage, right? >> you can. >> but you wouldn't have it if you're in alabama. what happens if doma gets struck down? >> really you're back to circa 1996. what doma says is two things. one state does not have to recognize the marriage law, same-sex marriage law, of another state. that would be struck down and then there would have to be another test as to full faith and credit. >> if you move from california to utah and you're getting the recognized marriage in california but not in utah, but in utah living in salt lake city you'd be able to get social security benefits and all the federal stuff. >> you would -- it's not clear. >> it would depend how the court rules in that case. >> if the court reaches the question of full faith and credit, what that is, utah must recognize the marriage laws of california, then, yes -- >> but you'd still be getting your social security checks,

wouldn't you? >> it's not clear -- >> let's go back to a clear case. if prop 8 -- if the decision by the ninth , if the decision to strike that down, if that is upheld, where do we stand? what does that do? is equality then the law of the land? is marriage equality the law of land? >> it would depend on how the supreme court rules. if it upholds the ruling as it currently is, it would immediately affect california and marriages would begin again here in this state. and it would prevent any other state from granting a right and then revoking that right as california did. but, look, this court can also go back to judge vaughn walker's ruling which was a broad and sweeping victory that looked at equal protection and it was in the realm of loving v. virginia and brown v. board. when you talk about doma, you don't have to look further than the plaintiff in this case. the aclu brought that case with edie. she had been married to her wife for 20 years. got married in canada. moved to new york and, unfortunately, her wife passed away. and you know what the government did when her wife passed away? they sent her a tax bill for $300,000. they wouldn't do that to you and

your wonderful wife, and they wouldn't do that to other straight couples in this country. it's not fair. >> let's go to -- let's get revolutionary. we only have a few minutes. wonder looking at justice kennedy, maybe because he's irish, i'm just kidding, there's something about him i find very interesting. >> and from california. >> he's from california. if you look at the majority opinion in the case involving lawrence versus texas which was about outlawing or basically declaring sodomy -- anti-sodomy laws unconstitutional, he says not only in that court decision you can't deny a person's liberty in these cases to engage in intimate conduct but it's about something bigger. marriage is not about having constant sex, it's about having a loving relationship. it's about people. >> right. >> not organs. let me -- >> it's about families. >> okay. you tell it your way. if it gets down to questions of liberty and equal protection of the law, fundamental things that they developed in philadelphia in the old days, those values, it seems to me, argue very

clearly for the right to choose your partner in marriage, clearly. your thoughts on that, chad. to me it's stirringly a fundamental issue we're at. it's not about sexual mores, not about values about sexual conduct. it's the fundamental right of a person to pursue happiness and define liberty their way and define relationships their way that come to them basically because of who they are. they don't choose to be gay or whatever. >> exactly. you're absolutely right. in fact, that's the only thing it's about. it's actually the most simple of things that we could be talking about. in this country, we deny a portion of our population the fundamental right to marry the person they love because of who they are. how we are born. again, it's un-american -- >> tell that to trent lott. >> we have learned we don't write off anyone. you look at ted olson and so many republicans and democrats who have stood up with us.

>> joe looked like a great president. thank you. thank you. it's an honor to have you on and your organization. elizabeth birch, good to have you back. much bigger studio now. coming up, the republicans -- it going to be a big hit. we'll be covering this all year. the republican establishment is at war with its crazy wing. they say they lost the election because ideologues pulled mitt romney foo far to the right. that sounds reasonable. wrong says the right wing. we lost because mitt romney wasn't right wing enough. the winner of this little tango will determine whether the gop moves to the center where it might find some votes or becomes an even more fringy party. also, the fiscal cliff. it's down to two people. everybody seems to agree, two people get in the room, the president and the leader of the opposition, john boehner, the speaker. they may be closer, some argue, to an agreement than we think. the question is can they sell the deal to their bases, to their fringies, left and right i must say. plus, republicans say they would change after the election and they are. guess what? they're changing the rules. some of them are proposing to republicans in pennsylvania and three other states obama won,

they're trying to eliminate the winner-take-all system of awarding electoral votes. that way republicans could win electoral votes in states they lose. new jersey governor chris christie finally meets his idol. the man he's seen in concert more than 100 times. the governor and the boss, bruce springsteen. they're friends now. this is "hardball," the place for politics. approximate nothing melts away the cold like a hot, delicious bowl of chicken noodle soup from campbell's. ♪ let it snow, let it snow bp has paid overthe people of bp twenty-threeitment to the gulf. billion dollars to help those affected and to cover cleanup costs. today, the beaches and gulf are open, and many areas are reporting their best tourism seasons in years. and bp's also committed to america. we support nearly 250,000 jobs and invest more here than anywhere else.

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welcome back to "hardball."

here is one of the easiest predictions after any election, especially this one. the republican party would split in two. on one side you have the establishment republicans, the john boehner, mitch mcconnell wing of the party. to them the election was lost because the conservative ideologues pulled mitt romney so far to the right in the primaries he could never find his way back to the middle in november. on the other side is the right wing, jim demint, rick santorum, the talk radio conservative media industrial complex. they make the same argument ideologues always make when they lose. the problem to them was our guy wasn't ideological enough. the conflict is playing out in technicolor with demint blowing the united states senate to become the ceo of the conservative movement and firing a warning shot at boehner in the

process. joining me are michael steele, former rnc chair, now one of us, and joy reid, managing editor of thegrio.com. she's also one of us. thank you, gentleman and lady. i want you to look at something. this is what happens when you go near what i call the misery index, the rush limbaugh show. yesterday jim demint, still the united states senator from south carolina, and the outgoing heritage president ed fuelner went on rush and yuck-yucked about john boehner. they made fun of the speaker. let's listen. >> well, i think it's safe to say boehner is not forcing either of you guys out, right? >> that's pretty true. >> it might work a little bit the other way, rush. >> what do you make of that? it might work a little bit the other way. here is an outgoing united states senator not being very outgoing about the speaker of the house saying he might lose his job because demint is going to the heritage foundation. explain that rubik's coupe. >> actually, there's no connection.

that's just idle banter with rush limbaugh. the speaker is going to be back in charge. he's negotiating right now with the president. >> but why clip the speaker on the way by? >> it's sort of setting the stage for what's to come. he's going to go out, he's got a new platform, an elevated voice, if you will. he's not one of 100. he's now really representing a lot of conservative voices around the country, but the thing to be careful about here is, you know, you talked about the split within the party. that split has been there for a while. it's not just after this election. it goes back a good number of years, and it's not about some ideological i'm more conservative than you. it really is trying to figure out and marshal together those core principles that revolve around the economic realities that this country has to face. >> what's the fight about?

>> the fight is about who gets to articulate it, who gets to decide and make -- >> just personnel? >> it's not so much personnel as it is personality. >> wait a minute. let's step back. i want to bring in joy. looking at it from across the aisle, i know you're more progressive, to put it lightly. here is the story. you have demint out there running a candidate against mitch mcconnell to his right, almost beating him last time around, trying to move the party to the right. selecting candidates like sharron angle and some of the whackier ones like christine o'donnell. all around the country always trying to get several notches to the right of what we have. bob bennett, not right wing enough, john mccain not right wing -- their idea of right wing is way out, and the leader of them all is this guy who is leaving the senate. how do you see it? >> i think this is the place where the conservative movement and the republican party often times part ways, and jim demint has been the burr in the bonnet of mitch mcconnell who people on the left think of as this hard right intransigent guy because

he said his top priority was making barack obama a one-term president, but really mitch mcconnell in a lot of ways is like john boehner. an old-time deal maker. people like jim demint can't stand people like that. they feel the party has become to easy to capitulate. remember with the budget control act when democrats were screaming bloody murder and thought the president had capitulated? on the far right they thought john boehner and mitch mcconnell had capitulated and lost that negotiation. they want the party further and further to the right. what demint specializes in doing is finding candidates to primary other republicans and to try to push the party further and further to the outskirts. >> what do you think of that? >> i think there's some truth to that. what is interesting to me is during the bush years, where were all these voices when all the spending was going on? >> he wasn't -- >> there's a certain level of disingenuousness there. you have to be careful in making these broad brush -- >> let me ask you a question. if you were back at your old job, rnc chair, you may be there again for all i know, how would you repair this thing? would you go to demint and his crowd moving to the outside to sort of build their sort of logger out there to fight the establishment or would you say, wait a minute, the future is

dead center conservative. it's not fringy, it's not john birch, not going over -- >> i would remind them we're a center right party very much like the country -- >> i don't agree with that. >> the country is center right. >> they just voted for obama. >> center left. >> that's another show. we'll have that conversation. but the country is center right in large measure. >> we can't have another arithmetic system. >> this is not about the math. this is about the facts and the realities on the ground. >> the facts. the numbers. >> 51% of the people identify themselves as pro-life. that's center right. >> they don't support outlawing -- >> another show. >> they don't believe in outlawing abortion. >> self-identify as pro-life. let's move on. the point is -- >> no. i can't move on. this country is -- when it comes down to the law, the people are pro-choice. when it comes to values, they may be against abortion. we can't go any further. you have just said the country is a center right country, and your evidence of that is that obama won? >> no, that's your evidence. >> what evidence do you have that it's center right?

>> what i'm talking about is on the issues that the conservative movement is going to be talking to the country about -- >> taxing the rich? they're against that. >> there are individuals out there that they can appeal to, and my point is more broadly speaking that you cannot lump this -- what demint is doing and saying that all this gaggle of conservatives are going to be following behind it. >> i agree with that part. >> the split is much more than you think it is within the party. and so that's got to be reconciled to be honest about it. it's got to be reconciled, and to your point and your question about what would i say? i would say, look -- >> you're center right. you think the country is like you. >> understand where the country is, and that's where you need to be. >> rush limbaugh's show yesterday demint said conservatives' problem is not their message. their problem is getting their message out. let's listen.

>> i think the problem is, as conservatives, we have not taken enough control of our message and our ideas and communicated them directly to the american people. that's what we want to do at heritage. >> don't you love the way he chews on that stogie. not that there's anything wrong with it. joy, you're back here again. every party that loses an election, the ideological wing of that party always says, you didn't get your message across. if they only could hear clearly what she was saying. do you buy that? >> it's the packaging. and you know what? jim demint has been saying this for a long time. it's not what's in the box, it's the packaging. look what he did with marco rubio. a perfect study of what jim demint specializes in. you say to latinos, look at this guy. he's brown like you. but when he starts to speak, he has to say the same doctrine script and say party line. he has to be against the dream act. marco rubio was for privatizing social security.

he's for all the same stuff that the american people over and over again have rejected ideawise, but he can put it in a nicer package. that's what jim demint has been trying to say. >> how do you say self-deportation in spanish? >> i don't think there's a term for it. >> i won't go there. but i think to joy's point, and she makes a good one, that i think the reality for the gop right now is it's no longer about the packaging. it really is about the substance -- >> it's a center right party back to your strong point. >> exactly. it's about the substance of the argument you have to make to the american people, and we can disagree or agree on whether the country is center right or center left, but the fact of the matter is we need to be wherever the country is, that sweet spot to have that conversation. >> can i give you some advice? >> please. >> run christie. >> you got it. >> chris christie against hillary clinton would be -- >> it would be a barn burner. >> one is careful and professional. the other is a wild swinger, you don't know what he's going to do, overweight, the whole thing. wow, what an election. thank you, michael steele. happy weekend. joy reid, relax this weekend. speaking of chris christie, he gets what he's wanting his whole life. this guy is a regular guy in some ways. that's ahead on "hardball," the place for politics. ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." time for the "sideshow." first, governor chris christie, as i said, is an outrageous bruce springsteen fan. he's been to over 100 of the boss' concerts, but self-proclaimed liberal bruce himself hasn't returned the love until lately. last night christie told jon stewart about meeting springsteen at the nbc telethon for hurricane sandy. >> i was on the stage afterwards talking to steve van zandt and max, and all of a sudden they were looking behind me. they moved away and stopped talking. so i turned around, and there he was. >> and there he was. >> there he was. >> and he gave you -- >> he put his hand out, and i shook his hand. i tried to be cool, i wasn't. >> no. >> and then he said, come on, give me a hug. and i said, all right.

and i hugged him, and -- >> and did he go, come on, stop. >> no. you know, that's always hard to judge, right. when do you stop the man hug? it's hard -- >> you got to give also this, the pat, or did you just go slow dance? >> no, i went slow dance. >> you've got to be kidding. >> i went slow dance. i did. >> no pat? >> no pat, i went slow dance. but then he said the most amazing thing to me. he said, it's official, we're friends. >> oh, wow. that's nice. that's nice. >> sounds like getting a knighthood, a jersey knighthood. next, remember this from the final days of the presidential campaign? >> i will come on "morning joe" and i will shave off my mustache of 40 years if we lose any of those three states. >> that's right. our old friend and obama adviser david axelrod was so confident president obama would win pennsylvania, michigan, and minnesota he bet his mustache. he soon turned the bet into a

challenge with joe to raise money for epilepsy. he's championed the cause in support of his daughter. thanks to joe and mika, they met their goal of $1 million raised, and ax lived up with his pledge. here is "morning joe" today. >> i have been staring at it for 40 years, savannah. i'm very attached to it. i was up all night, to be honest with you. >> oh, good lord. >> it's a little unsettling. >> well, here you can see side by side before and after footage of ax. what do you think? a little dark on that left side. lastly, lots of speculation about whom south carolina governor nikki haley will pick to fill jim demint's senate seat. our pal stephen colbert put his mind to it. >> but who will she pick? let's see, you want somebody young, somebody conservative, somebody from south carolina, maybe somebody who had a super

pac. wait a second. watch where you point that thing. it's powerful. i know when i look at the u.s. senate, i say to myself, you know what they could use? another white guy. >> well, the governor responded on her facebook page saying, stephen, thank you for your interest in south carolina's u.s. senate seat and for the thousands of tweets you and your fans sent me, but you forget one thing, my friend. you didn't know our state drink. big, big mistake. well, she was referring to this from earlier this year. >> what's the state drink? >> there's a state drink? >> it's milk. >> i didn't realize my state was so boring. >> makes me think i'm going to like the person she picks a lot less than i do steve colbert. the fiscal cliff.

if it's down to the president and john boehner deciding this, what does a win look like for both sides? you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] citi turns 200 this year. in that time there've been some good days. and some difficult ones. but, through it all, we've persevered, supporting some of the biggest ideas in modern history. so why should our anniversary matter to you? because for 200 years, we've been helping ideas move from ambition to achievement. and the next great idea could be yours. ♪ ♪ don't know what i'd do ♪ i'd have nothing to prove ♪ i'd have nothing to lose [ male announcer ] zales is the diamond store. take an extra 10 percent off storewide, now through sunday. humans -- sometimes life trips us up.

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i'm craig melvin. president obama want congress to cut a check for $60 billion in aid to hurricane sandy victims. house leadership hopes to get the money flowing fast. video captures a 7.3 quake off the coast of japan. several people were reportedly hurt. and sad news from the london hospital where kate middleton was treated. a nurse who fielded it the call that was a hoax call has taken her own life. she was a first-class nurse, says the hospital. back to "hardball."

well, this isn't a progress report because there's no progress to report. when it comes to the fiscal cliff that's threatening our economy and threatening jobs, the white house has wasted another week. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was speaker boehner's downbeat assessment of fiscal negotiations. he went on putting blame squarely on the president. let's listen. >> this president has adopted a deliberate strategy to slow walk our economy right to the edge of the fiscal cliff. it's time for the president, if he's serious, to come back to us with a counteroffer. >> shortly after, house minority leader nancy pelosi put the blame back on republicans. let's listen. >> the only obstacle standing in the way of middle income tax relief are the republicans' unwillingness to ask the top 2% to pay their fair share.

this is a moment of truth. the clock is ticking. christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat, but in many homes across america it's very -- a very, very lean time. >> and today's jobs report showing 146,000 jobs added in november and unemployment dipping to 7.7% may give the president some leverage in negotiations with boehner. but while the president and speaker boehner are both negotiating for a win, what is a win for each of them? what adds up to this complexity of getting a deal done? chrystia freeland is author of "plutocrats." cynthia tucker is a visiting professor of journalism from the university of georgia. thank you for joining us tonight. let's see if we can define it. it's a game, and it's incredibly high stakes. chrystia, thank you for coming on tonight. if you were the president of the united states and you were looking from here to the new year and the cliff, what do you

hope is -- what do you think is a win for you to be able to go into the new year having gotten this off your back? >> i think a win for the president is actually pretty clear. what the president wants is to extend the bush tax cuts for the middle class. he wants them to expire for those at the very top, and i think the president is actually willing in this context to agree to pretty significant cuts in revenue. so, you know -- >> cuts in entitlements? >> yes, yeah, exactly. cuts in government spending, sorry. you know, so i think that that is okay for the president. i think what is difficult and why you're seeing this being a really difficult negotiation for john boehner is it's much harder to define a win for john boehner. you know, is a win, you know, holding absolutely fast? is a win saying, you know, great, we were the party that managed to cut social security for the middle class? that's going to be pretty hard to go into another election with. >> you know, do you agree with that assessment that it's easier

for the president, cynthia, because he basically wins on taxes. he's the robin hood, if you will, of this issue. he's looking out for the regular people against the people on the top. on the other side he's saying, you republicans, you can be the scrooges this winter. i have to go along with it. but you're forcing me to do it, so you're the bad guys. so i think i agree with chrystia. this is basically a setup if there is a deal for the president. >> well, i do think that the president would certainly get a big win with the middle class tax cut piece of this which i think is going to pass. whether it passes by the first of the year is another matter, but i think he'll get that piece of it. but i think it will be more difficult for the president's party to see his agreement to making big cuts in entitlement spending as a win. let's remember that the progressive coalition was

strengthened in this election. we have more progressives in office than we did -- there will be more of them in congress in january than there are in congress now. and progressives already think that president obama is too willing to sell them out in these negotiations, so while i think the president is very dedicated to this idea of grand bargain two, you know, yes, if i can get increased revenues, higher taxes on the wealthy, i will certainly agree to some serious entitlement cuts. whether he can get the backing from his party, whether they will also see it as a win for him is quite another matter, i think. >> let's get back to the pressure on them both, objective pressure on both of them. if we do get to the 31st of this month without any deal, who is that tougher on? >> i think it's much tougher on the republicans and on john boehner which is why i think they're in such a difficult position right now. the reason it's tougher is game theory or negotiation theory. if we dive off the fiscal cliff or maybe a more appropriate metaphor is we walk gently off of the fiscal beach, that puts the republicans in a much more difficult negotiating position. all of a sudden the president

can go out on january 1 and say, look, i am in favor of tax cuts for the middle class. your taxes have gone up because of the republicans. what kind of a crazy party is this which is standing in the way of tax cuts, right? we thought that was what the republican -- their job is to cut taxes. so i think the president has a very good hand of cards right now. >> but on the other hand, doesn't the president have to get certain things done positively? doesn't he want to keep the payroll tax cut continuing? does he really want to take all those cuts in domestic and defense spending?

aren't there some things he really thinks will hurt the economy over which he's the steward right now? does he want a second depression? no. a second recession. >> it will hurt the economy. i agree entirely. i think the short-term pressure is much more on john boehner, that he has -- if we go to the first of the year and taxes have gone up on everybody, i think that people will largely blame the republicans for that, as think should. having said that though, the longer this goes on, the more likely it is that it puts the economy in a second recession, and heaven knows that's the last thing that obama wants. so the pressure on obama may not be immediate, but it is there. let's remember, by the way, chris, i think it's always important to remind people, your viewers, what we're talking about here. if we all end up diving off this fiscal cliff, it doesn't make the deficit worse. it makes the deficit better. it would go a long way toward curing the deficit, but the

deficit isn't the immediate problem for most people, the weak economy is. >> i agree. >> and if we dive off the fiscal cliff, the economy could get much weaker. that's -- >> by the way -- >> -- millions of americans. it's a problem for barack obama. >> just to back you up, i really think the great thing is the economy is just starting to lift up. the unemployment rate is really starting to come down. we're getting good job production. thank you so much, ladies, for coming on tonight. thanks for the sharp thinking we got tonight. up next, if you can't win by the rules, change them. that's what republicans are trying to do in pennsylvania. they don't like the electoral college because it didn't work for them. come back for the place for politics.

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it's nice to have the experience and commitment to go along with you. keep dreaming. keep doing. go long. it's so great to see you. you, too! oh, cloudy glasses. you didn't have to come over! actually, honey, i think i did... oh? you did? whoa, ladies, easy. hi. cascade kitchen counselor. we can help avoid this with cascade complete pacs. see, over time, cascade complete pacs fight film buildup two times better than finish quantum. to help leave glasses sparkling shiny! too bad it doesn't work on windows. okay, i'm outta here. cascade. the clear choice. welcome back to "hardball." there's a potentially big electoral story developing in pennsylvania that you need to hear about. the state's 20 electoral votes went for president obama this year, of course. as is the case in all but two states, the winner of a state's popular vote takes all its electoral votes.

now a republican leader in the state of pennsylvania -- or the commonwealth i should say wants to change the rules of the game. state senate majority leader dominick pileggi announced he plans to introduce legislation to change how the state allocates its electoral votes. according to mother jones magazine, the new rule would divvy up the vote proportionally based on the percentage of the vote. instead of getting 20, a winner in a closely divided state result might get 11 or 12 votes 20 years? it could turn into a nasty political battle. e we turn to david korn of mother jones magazine, pst we also have ron reagan. you have the rye sense to go with this. why would they want to change the electoral count? why would they go against a block vote? why would they do that? i think the republicans have examined the playing field as it

were and long and bitter experience, they have come to the conclusion that it's very difficult for them to win on a national level, unless they cheat. so they are going to cheat any way they can. e we saw it with the voter suppression efforts. let's just change how we count the votes and in states like pennsylvania, ohio, florida, states like that, these are the battleground states that we need to win and we're narrowly losing them now so let's get some of the electoral college and maybe it tips the election. >> i'm with ron before i even know i'm with him. it is about voter suppression. the counties that always go republican, they can't stand the fact that philadelphia has the population. they can't stand that fact that that effects the statewide

results. >> it would benefit the republicans. a lot of minorities we like to cut them off. there are no rules in the constitution about picking electors. every state gets to set its own rules. >> there must be a rational. >> it became the consensus position over time. winner takes all. if you wanted to do the system, you could make the argument to divide it up by population in every state. that would be fair if you did that in every state, in which case it would reflect the popular vote. but that's not what they are try doing here. they tried to do this before the election. even a more waited way. if you win the district, you get the electorate from that district. under that situation, obama

winning pennsylvania would have gotten 7 of the 20 electoral votes. but they pull ed away from that. >> if you're in a minority community, you want it the way it is now. you want michigan from detroit or in philadelphia, its influence op the statewide election. if it was just every person and you didn't give that block vote power to people, they would permanently be in the minority and permanently out of power because you could go out and look around for other votes. >> that's right. forget about apportioning electoral votes. what if we went to a national popular vote. that would be the last thing republicans would want. they would never win the white house. they seem to think that people in the cities are some strange alien. they are not really americans. the only votes that count are in the bergs. >> hamlets. >> most americans live in

cities. >> that's exactly what paul ryan said. we would have done well if it wasn't for the urban vote. which is most people. >> here's the rational for the moment. "anyone who voted for governor romney does not have any reflection of that vote in the electoral college vote. this is a proposal that's not party specific or partisan in any way. but just an attempt to have the popular vote reflected in the electoral college vote." i think the argument, and you can argument about the vote, they like to see it go popular. the idea is to get people to spend time in the big states instead of racing around the country. there are arguments back and forth, but this one has the look of partisanship. >> clearly this is partisanship. the republicans know they cannot win nationally in an honest election. if everybody is eligible to vote in this country, republicans

never win. so they are looking for ways to control it. coral people in certain districts or keep them from voting. this is just an extension of that effort. >> the republicans are fighting, as we have discussed, a really big demographic tide that's not going in their direction. i still think they can win elections in the future. but the tides against them. >> or any incumbent in bad times. >> so they have to find a scheme. they can do this with dark money as well. they can do it with voter suppression. the gap is narrow enough if you get enough schemes going, maybe you can cobble together a victory next time. e eventually that's going to be harder for them to do. they are looking wherever they can go. >> back in the old days to have a 1930 census to keep equal numbers. not a bad effort but it didn't work. thank you david corn. thank you ron reagan.

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